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Inside the Selective Service: "Active Standby" (Acting Director, 2024)
Selective Service System director testimony on draft readiness, mobilization timelines and draft exercises.
Ep. 14: The importance of civilian control of the military & our Selective Service · Vetted Conversations · uploaded 2024-07-25 · 59:22
Original: youtube.com/watch?v=zNEU1FTgfKA · IPFS QmWJdtUhBSdQjt2aTac5Jkr2pTqNjttWa4Awy8oKTHUn5A
What this video is evidence for
Joel Spangenberg led the Selective Service System, the federal agency that would run a draft. In this July 2024 interview on Vetted Conversations, he is introduced as the official who "leads national conscription readiness," overseeing a national headquarters, a data management center, three regional headquarters and over 8,000 volunteer draft-board members.
In his own words, the agency is not dormant:
"We are a readiness organization at our very core... an additional tier of support to our nation's all-volunteer force. And right now, we actually are operating what we call an active standby status."
Key facts he gives:
- Congress, in the FY2022 National Defense Authorization Act, required the Department of Defense to include the Selective Service in a recurring national mobilization exercise.
- Registration among 18-to-25-year-olds fell from 89% (2021) to 84% (2022), one of the largest drops in the agency's history, with 2023 lower still. The agency's answer is to link registration to driver's licenses and state IDs, already in place in 45 states and territories, where "it's actually an automatic linkage."
- He personally supports expanding draft registration to women, and notes the administration then supported it too.
Two years later, Congress made registration automatic nationwide, effective December 2026. The low registration numbers he describes are the problem that automatic registration, and the data-matching behind it, were built to solve.
Where this fits: see Forced Draft Software for the full explanation and sources.
Transcript
Machine transcription (apple-speechanalyzer) of the full 00:59:22. It can mishear names and words, so check exact wording against the video before quoting it.
Yes, you know, ultimately the goal for us is to ensure people register. That's uh, that's number one. And, you know, I think some of the ramifications that people face if they don't register, I think, come in the, what we would call the benefits space or opportunity space. So for instance, if you don't register, you may not be able to get a federal job, right? That's a major challenge.
And a number of states have very similar laws on the books where if you don't register, you may not be able to get a seat job. Um, you know, and I'll talk about this, hopefully a little in a little more detail later on, but one of the things that happens at the state level too, is there's a connection often between a man being registered and their ability to get state level, student aid. So that's that's another thing and also US citizenship. So people who are immigrants here, they have to register too. And, um, you know, it could cause delays if they fail to register.
So those are some examples that we see. Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations podcast. Well, we delve into the foundations, workings, and current challenges to the American way of self-governance. In today's confusing world, It's more important than ever to understand how our government works, and how we, as citizens, can actively participate in the discussion, to safeguard our liberties and continue freedom. Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have the knowledge and insights needed to become more informed and engaged citizens and active members of your communities.
So let's get into it. Hello listeners. Part of our mission here is to help increase our collective understanding of civics, namely our rights, and perhaps, more importantly, our responsibilities to each other as citizens in a free society. To do this, we're bringing in national experts on civics and our military, to talk to you and answer our questions. So joining us today is Dr.
Michael O'Hanlon. Dr. O'Hanlon is a senior fellow and director of research and foreign policy at the Brookings Institution where he specializes in U.S. Defense Strategy, U.
S. Military Force, and American National Security Policy. He's been a friend of we the veterans of military families for quite some time, and we're happy to have you here today, Mike. Hey, Joe and Alan, nice to be with you. Thanks so much.
Well, so we're excited to ask you a few questions that I think, you know, all military families, veterans, uh, really are curious about and and should understand. So the 1st one is, why is it important to have civilian control of the military in a democracy like ours? It's an excellent question, and it really is worth asking just that basic straightforward way, because we get so used to saying we have it. that it almost becomes instinctual or reflexive, but we should think about why. And the main reason is, of course, that military officers and enlisted personnel are professionals who are supposed to do what the nation asks them to do, but they aren't really supposed to be making decisions because they are not directly accountable to the voter.
So they are professionals. And civilian leaders are politicians who are elected by the voter and who are also directly constrained by a system of checks and balances. There is no system of checks and balances. Uh, within the military. We don't have the army fighting the Marine Corps, except maybe on the occasional softball field or gridiron, and in the trash talk, you know, of bars and restaurants.
The, the, the idea here is that a democracy is a system where voters select their leaders and where there is a system of protection of individual rights and checks and balances on each branch of government. And that is all handled through voting and also through a professional court system. So, in a sense, of the 3 main branches of government, the military is most similar to the courts in that it's supposed to be professional, and do technical things, whereas it is primarily the congressional executive branches that are accountable to the voter, and therefore that have powers in the Constitution, to raise and equip armies and navies and declare war. So it really comes down to the system of voting and majority rule, but with checks and balances and protection of individual rights. All that is handled outside of the uniform military, and therefore the uniform military should not be making decisions that represent the will of the voter.
All right, thank you. That was a great answer. The word civics means a lot of different things to a lot of people. How do we define it? Well, to us, it's all about understanding our rights, and perhaps even more important, our responsibilities to each other as citizens.
Democracy is not a spectator sport, and every citizen needs to do their part. That and also understanding how our government is designed to work. There are 2 main fundamental duties of any legitimate government, and the 1st is to protect the people from attack, and the 2nd is to punish the unjust. Everything after that, it's negotiable, which leads us to today's topic, the selective service. The selective service established in 1917 has been the cornerstone of American defense strategy during times of national emergency.
It's a system through which our government can conscript citizens into military service, ensuring our nation's armed forces remain ready to support and defend our Constitution and the American way of life. Conscription, otherwise known as a draft. But what exactly is a selective service, and how does it work? Though the selective service as we know it today was not in use. The United States has had a system of conscription since the Revolutionary War.
It was used in World War I, World War II, during the Korean War, the Cold War, and the War in Vietnam. Registration was suspended in 1975, and the system has gone into what they call deep standby. But beginning in 1979, a series of revitalization efforts were begun to upgrade the system's capability for rapid mobilization during an emergency. Joining us today to explore this topic further is the acting director of the selective service, the honorable Joel Spangenberg. Mr.
Spangenberg is a U.S. Naval Academy graduate and veteran of the U.S. Navy, where he served as a surface warfare officer, deploying in support of operation enduring freedom following the 911 terrorist attacks.
He also served on the aircraft carrier, the USS Abraham Lincoln, and deployed to the Western Pacific. He has a long and distinguished career in public service and in his current role. He leads national conscription readiness, overseeing the national headquarters, data management center, and 3 regional headquarters, consistent of civil servants, military reservists, and over 8000 volunteers. Acting director Spangenberg, welcome. Hey, uh, good morning and uh, thank you for uh, allowing you to join you today.
It's a pleasure. Absolutely. Um, We're, uh, super excited to have you today. The selector service, I think, is often misunderstood. uh, entity within the United States government, and one of our missions is to kind of clear up some, uh, misconceptions people might have about it.
We just had folks who founded the Department of Homeland Security on a few weeks back to help do some myth busting around there as well. So what could you tell us about the selective service system and its makeup admission? Okay, well, the selective service system, uh, 1st off is an uh, independent federal agency, and uh, we believe we've been a distinguished part of our nation's history spanning eras of conflict and peace. Um, and it's important, I think, to also frame what else I'd like to share with you today in the sense that we are a readiness organization at our very core. So, uh, we see ourselves as a unique element, uh, the nation's national security capabilities.
We represent an additional tier of support to our nation's all volunteer force. And right now, we actually are operating what we call an active standby status, which is our peacetime posture, with registration for young men across America being our most visible activity. And just for everybody's awareness, registration is an important civic responsibility in our nation. What we hope that a return to conscription does not occur. You never know what the future may hold.
Our mission is to maintain a state of readiness that the president and Congress reinstated a draft in response to a national emergency, such as a major conflict. So, to clarify, so we haven't had a draft in more than 50 years, but there's still a requirement for young men to register with the selective service. And by doing that, they are sort of signed up on one of these state level lists and and the teams that you oversee are ready to train them if needed and sort of get them ready to serve. Is that, is that the general uh, overview? So our, um, we have a board member program.
I think that's what we're talking about here and yes, we actually work to recruit them. So we have enough of them in the event of, if there was ever a return to conscription. And it's also important to note that our board members are to reflect the composition of that community to the greatest extent possible. So we work to make sure that they reflect that community. Um, and, you know, it's important for us to continue to train them, uh, so that they are ready, uh, if there ever was a national emergency.
A big part of selective service system is to be as fair and equitable as possible. And even in our regulations, it's captured there that we're supposed to be working to have our boards representing communities nationwide. And, you know, we've seen that we have a construct where our boards would at least be at the county level, but we also have the ability to make the multi-county or have more than one board per county. Um, so, you know, so you can imagine a very, uh, large city, which might also be within a county might have multiple boards. So that's how we work that construct and we have to, you know, continuously recruit and train to make sure that that system of volunteers is always ready to go.
What other top priorities do you have currently? Great question. So one of the things that we've been looking at, especially since 2022, and I joined the agency in August 2022, and I had been the chief of staff here before during the Obama administration, but we made a major transition in our focus as an agency to bring us into greater alignment with the national security strategy, national defense strategy, the president's management agenda, and the congressional direction found in the fiscal year 2022 National Defense Authoriz Act. In particular, the requirement for the Department of Defense to include us in a recurring national mobilization exercise. So we were, uh, we were looking, you know, up and out to see what we really had to make sure we would need to align to so we can operate this agency in the best way possible.
Most people interact with us as customers, if you will, as it relates to registration. So we very much stay attuned to that through things like our call center and our online tools. That's awesome. With registration, I mean, I think one important thing for young Americans to understand is that this is a law. Like, and if you don't register, it can have pretty significant limiting factors on your future.
Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like, um, one, it's important to comply with with the law, but like, what happens if if 18-year-old Joe Plunzer decides like, oh, I'm not going to do this, right? Yes, you know, ultimately the goal for us is to ensure people register. That's uh, that's number one. And, you know, I think some of the ramifications that people face, if they don't register, I think, come in the, what we would call the benefits space or opportunities.
space. So for instance, if you don't register, you may not be able to get a federal job, right? That's a major challenge. And a number of states have very similar laws on the books where if you don't register, you may not be able to get a seat job. Um, you know, and I'll talk about this, hopefully a little in a little more detail later on, but, uh, one of the things that happens, uh, at the state level too, is, uh, there's a connection often, often between, uh, uh, a man being registered in their ability to get state level, uh, student aid.
So that's that's another thing and also US citizenship. So people who are immigrants here, they have to register too. And, you know, it could cause delays if they fail to register. So those are some examples that we see. Okay.
So considering all of that and sort of, you know, you guys have modernized, you're reaching people where they are online, your systems are kind of, you know, getting up to date with technology, which is which is all incredible. Um, so how, what's the pig picture? Like what, how's registration going across America? Have you seen a dip in registration rates, despite all this incredible work that you're trying to do? You know, what's what's sort of the general status of registration right now?
Okay, that that's a great question and I think this is a key thing for us too, is, you know, we've been focusing on readiness, but registration is definitely a foundational thing that we care quite a bit about. So we try to keep registration rates as high as possible. So until, uh, recently, we, you know, we certainly were achieving around a 90% registration rate or higher. So for the aggregate 18 to 25 year old population. So, uh, we started to see a major challenge emerging late 2020, and it wasn't simply COVID impacts, uh, but it was something else, and let me tell you about that.
It was the FASA simplification act of that year. And that actually de-linked men's eligibility to receive federal student aid from registration. In recent years, that FAFSA kind of side of things, that Department of Education Connection represented approximately 20% of the annual selective service registration. So, you know, young men when they were filling out their FAFSA forms, they had an option to register with selective service. That started to go away.
So this resulted in a 5% decrease in registration rates across America, as we went from 89% in calendar year 2021 to 84% in 2022 for the 18 to 25 year old population. That is one of our largest decreases in our agency's history. So that's been a real struggle. That had a big impact. And preliminary data for 2023 indicates we are going to have yet another decrease into the low 80% range.
This has been a dramatic but not fully unexpected decrease. Now, um, then it's not like we're just sitting here and watching it happen. I don't want you or the listeners to think that. We've actually been very active in the face of this challenge. We've expanded our public affairs and outreach efforts with federal, state, territory, tribal and local government partners, and also several other groups.
I can mention those influencer type groups and associations, nationwide. And we developed new marketing and digital content to reach Gen Z and their influencers. And we're using data analytics and metrics to help identify effective ways to reach key audiences and influencers around the country. I'm curious, like if I got a social security number and the government knows I exist, um, why do I need to register? Like, shouldn't that be automatic?
Uh, could you tell us like, like, what's, what's the rationale behind actually taking the step to register? Yeah, so that actually goes back to the military selective service act and much of that was put together in the late 1940s. So there were different modes and ways of doing things back then. And, uh, encapsulated in that, um, uh, uh, the military selective service act and kind of the, the, the approach there was that men are to present themselves uh, for registration. So, um, you know, you can imagine a time where people would go to the post office to do it or other places.
So, but you're mentioning something that kind of does open people's eyes to like, hey, maybe there's a better way to do things in this day and age. So what you're what you've actually proposed to me. My answer is, yes, there is a way to do that. Um, So, and I would actually kind of link to something else that I think it's important for for people to know too about registration because, uh, so for instance, we have a driver's license legislation, which links men's registration, whether obtaining a driver's license or idea, and that's actually, or an ID. And that's a very successful driver of people getting registered.
So we have that in 45 states and territories. And that's been really successful for us. So in a number of places, it's actually an automatic linkage. Some places it's optional, whether you opt out or opt in. So we see that sort of connection.
Now, We've actually been thinking about how we can start to get more into this. So to counter the dramatic decrease in registration rates due to the fastest simplification act. I did ask the team to develop a legislative approach that would increase our registration rates to much higher numbers nationally, leveraging an automatic approach. So, one of our goals is to everybody who should be registered, they need to get registered. So we want to towards that.
So, uh, we'd love to be, you know, up close to 100% ideally as close as possible. I want to go back to a quick question because you mentioned it. We were going to ask specifically, of course, I was going to ask specifically, um, about sort of the, you know, what the selective service position is on, um, all the different legislative proposals to expand registration to women and and people of all genders. Obviously, this has been a, you know, a big debate in America, but I'm curious, you know, where are we? Where are you guys as an agency and where are we as a country on the idea of opening this up to a requirement for all people?
Um, That is a very important question, and that's one of the top questions we get as an agency. So thank you for bringing that up. And I, and I do want to give some credit to, to the, uh, there was a national commission, uh, that looked at military national and public service in recent years. And his report came out in March 2020. So does anybody recall what was happening in March 2020?
Maybe not the best time for reports to come out because then... got their mail and that's about it. Yeah, there was a lot of COVID. A lot of COVID concerns happening. But I think what they provided was very helpful.
And one thing that they articulated in there was to expand the registration requirement. And that actually, I think, um, um, you know, it was something that the Hill noticed and I, and I can't give you the full list of all the different, amendments or legislation that was introduced, but I know there had been tremendous interest in the hill about that as well. So that was really interesting to see. But, um, what I would go back to is where kind of my agency is and some of our thoughts on this as well. And some of these are my personal thoughts, but, um, you know, one of the things that I think is important to know is that legislative proposal I mentioned would include all genders.
And I, and I believe in, and I, you know, going, you know, going back and looking at recent legislation, particularly the FY 2022 National Defense Authorization Act. Um, this, you know, it was something that was being considered in that legislation to, you know, to expand the registration requirement. And the administration articulated that they supported the expansion of the registration requirement to all Americans in a statement of administration policy. It's important to also emphasize that the decision, ultimately, to expand registration to women, is for the president and Congress to decide, and we'll execute our mission here accordingly. And we know there are differences of opinion about expanding registration.
And I believe registration, expanded to all genders, is ultimately in the national interest. My opinion rests on the fact that it will ensure the nation would be in the best position to increase the size of the military rapidly and thoughtfully, if needed to do so. DOD would have the benefit of having a fuller and more diverse set of skills available to it. Um, should it should there ever be a return to conscription during a major conflict. Since we can't truly predict the future and know exactly what will be needed most during that emergency.
So the military could need people filling a wide variety of roles. So, you know, people historically think of, oh, conscription, you know, people are being shipped overseas, uh, they're going right into the infantry, that's not always the case, really. I mean, you hear stories going back to the Vietnam era of people doing much, different things. World War II. Certainly people were fulfilling a lot of roles.
So, The nation would potentially need people serving in the military who were focused on IT and cyber operations, drone operations, logistics, people working as mechanics for all this equipment. HR and administration, civil affairs. So it could run the full gamut. So this would actually allow DOD to thoughtfully look at that pool of people coming in and best match them where they're needed. And I think in a large scale society level, conflict, We would potentially need people in a lot of different roles.
True. And I think, you know, as in in the Pentagon, um, from 2010 to 2015, uh, during that time, uh, the current administration abolished, don't ask, no tell, right? Which is a problematic law that limited the recognition of service from any service members and put a lot of commanders in bad spots, right? You know, for a number of reasons. And then fairly quickly after that, after I left the Marine Corps in 2015.
Um, they changed the policy on ground combat exclusion for one, because prior to that point, women were excluded from tanks, artillery, infantry, especially, um, and other ground combat jobs, which in the Marine Corps is the fastest track to leadership, right, to becoming a general, to becoming, you know, and actually leading the Marine Corps. So, you know, there's a huge debate out there about, um, who owes what to the country and why? And I think, you know, personally speaking, um, you know, I think, you know, we are foolish not to fully embrace 100% of the talent within the country, right? If we're only going to limit ourselves to half. And right now, I know you don't make the laws and it's restricted right now to males, 18 to 25, but that was a pretty hot topic of debate, um, as well, but what's funny is that the women that I served with in the Marine Corps for 20 years almost unanimously said, hell yes, women should be required to sign up for the selective service.
So, I mean, you know, it's, uh, you know, I think a lot of the debate on that depends on the kind of where you sit in the society and what kind of values you were brought up with and, you know, if you're more traditional and more open-minded. Um, and that's fine. But, you know, that's, that's an important part of the debate. And I think one that needs to kind of be had, right? So, what do you think?
Yeah, I mean, as a woman who didn't serve, um, and actually I went to college, um, at a university that during my time there didn't have ROTC, even on campus, um, but then my senior year was 9-11. Um, you know, I was in New York City, I went to Columbia University, 911 was the September of my senior year. You know, you, you're, you're feeling as a, as a young person. I mean, I think a lot of people in the country had a very different perspective on what it meant to serve, um, including in the military. So I'm all about it.
I mean, I have 2 daughters and a son. I think they should all, you know, have to sign up and and I hope some of them serve. And regardless of their gender. Um, and so, yeah, I think, I mean, I think there's a, you know, we should feel about this, not as a burden, but as a privilege and a responsibility, as a citizen, not, you know, as a burden, as a young man, that you must carry. Yeah, and one of the things that I really appreciated about what Director Spangenberg brought up was that, you know, there's a lot of jobs in the military that aren't infantry or artillery tanks, right?
So, I mean, in the Marine Corps alone, fewer than 15% of the people in uh, in the Marine Corps, um, serving that capacity. Uh, a lot of, there's a lot of other jobs in the, in the, in the military that don't, you know, assume that kind of direct contact with the enemy risk. So, I mean, you know, and I get it. You know, like, you know, people um, typically don't like to be told what to do. And if they have plans in life, you know, to be told that they're going to do something other than those plans and serve in the military probably would be a fairly significant emotional experience.
But we've had an all volunteer force since 1973. It's been a long time since our nation is, um, had a draft. And from your perspective, Director Spangenberg, like, what are the, what are the pros of that system? Like, you know, if we haven't used it since 1973? Like what, uh, Um, Why do we still have it?
I think it all comes back down to, we need to maintain a level of readiness as a country. And I think that this is actually, You know, I'm very much a product of the all volunteer force myself. Um, and I had the great privilege of serving with uh, many outstanding men and women throughout my career and uh, it's, it's, it's great to see the, the service uh, that they, uh, that they bring so proudly to the country. But I think one of the things that comes back up for me quite a bit is the fact that we just cannot predict what that next conflict will be, right? So I think that's something we have to be clear eyed about.
Um, you know, things can happen. Um, And I would say we are fundamentally here to backstop the Department of Defense if there is a major conflict. And I, in my view, there has not been what I would term, and I don't mean any offense here, but a major conflict or major war since World War II. And what I mean by that is something really requiring the society to really align to the success of the nation in that conflict, really have a sense of there might be sacrifice. There might be hardship.
Um, and I think that that's why, you know, things like selective service system are here. So make sure the country can ultimately be successful, to build what we have from whole cloth. And GAO has even looked at this before. It's not something you can just throw money at and hope it'll just be created because what underlies what we do is a sense of trust with the public. Yeah.
If the public sees that we are here were well maintained, were being fair and equitable, were being thoughtful, were, I like the term, and I heard, I've heard General George, who's the chief of staff of the army, used this, and I love this term. We pull preparedness forward. And that's kind of the mentality is readiness organization. We do things ahead of time. So if that moment ever comes, we can respond and respond competently and well and communicate it well.
Because we know it's going to be at a very shocking time for the country if that time ever comes, and we owe it to everybody to do the best we can now. practice hard now so we can succeed when that time comes. Yeah, and I think, I mean, what you're describing to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, is really a literal break glass in case of war capability that our nation has, right? Like we've got this list of military age right now men and potentially in the future women who could be notified, called up and directed towards military service in a moment's known as if, um, the Congress and if the president both agree, which is a big if, right? And I mean, because you're right, like World War 2, existential threat to the country, like when we went into World War 2 and 1941, we didn't know, um, what America was going to look like coming out of the other side of that thing.
And if if, you know, if Germany had had beaten Britain, um, who knows what our what our country would look like, uh, if things turned the other way or if, you know, the Russians on the eastern front didn't, uh, didn't succeed as well. But the, uh, existential threat, God, that's a hard word to say, I think is an important thing for our listeners to understand, this isn't something that's undertaken lightly. I mean, you know, the chips really have to be on the line in the major way for the Congress and the president to pull the trigger on on reinstituting the draft. Yeah, it's what we say all the time. There's a lot of talk in America about what our rights are and just not as much talk about what our responsibilities are, um, of citizenship.
And this is one of those very, very, um, you know, sort of poignant examples of, you know, if our responsibility as citizens is in the common defense, then this is a key part of it. And so how do we make sure that this becomes something that people are proud to do and not something that they're burdened to do? Um, and so we're, yeah, we're, we're here for that. Yeah. And as I mean, there's a lot of benefits to the all volunteer force, professionalism, kind of planned pipeline, you know, high quality training, uh, people that want to be there, right?
You know, it's just, you know, I spent um, 2 years over at the Marine Corps' West Coast boot camp. And, you know, we were talking to the troll structures about like, your training of volunteers is a very different thing than training of conscripts that your uncle Bob went through, the Marine Corps, you know, the late 60s, early 70s, like totally different cultural climate, motivation and the rest of it. And I got to imagine, like, you know, if you had plans and all of a sudden you got a telegram in the mail or a letter saying, hey, you know, guess what? You're going in the Marine Corps of the Army back in 1968. You probably, um, you know, there's probably a lot of, uh, You know, a significant lack of motivation when you got to boot camp, right?
Um, but, you know, there are a downsides to that too. The all volunteer force. I mean we've seen it in 20 years in Iraq in Afghanistan. And and Joel, you're there, you're there for, you know, parts of it, right? You know, and, you know, it's you have folks going over for two, three, four, five, six.
I think the highest number, I saw somebody did 15 deployments, um, with special operations command during that time. And, and we run the risk of really wearing people out. And, um, you know, and we've seen it and and now in the veterans space, we see kind of like the downside of of that wear and tear, um, on veterans, right? Um, and there's a discussion we had. Uh, you know, about like, the Siv Mill gap, right?
A lot of people do cry like, oh, you know, the veteran space, like, you know, our public doesn't understand, uh, the military and they don't understand veterans and it's like, well, yeah, because, you know, less than one half, one% have joined and served. Um, since 911. And, you know, when when we're at war and America's told, hey, go to the mall, you know, like you brought up. There's an inevitable gap that's going to come into place. And I'm concerned about this because right now we're at 17000000 veterans by 2040 time frame.
The VA says we're going to be down below 14000000 as a Vietnam generation dies off. As our population in our country goes from 330, 335000000 now up to 405000000 over the same time frame. So like, you know, numbers of veterans per capita is going to get even smaller. Unless, God forbid, there is a national emergency where we do have to resort to the selective service and can script people again in large numbers, but, you know, I think, you know, perhaps, you know, looking back over the history of the country, and understanding that conscription was more the norm than the exception for most of our history in the wars that we fought. You know, greatest generation of World War II, most of those folks were conscripted, if I check my math correctly, right?
You know, they weren't. I think it was about of the 160000000 who served over 10000000 were conscripted. So that's a very true statement. Yeah, and a lot knew their number was coming up, so they volunteered anyway. So, you know, like, you could probably even plus up, you know, the numbers who otherwise would have been conscripted, had, you know, you know, it's just kind of like, if I know my number's coming up, and I have an ability to volunteer now and choose, like, I'd rather go into the Navy than the Marines or something like that, or, or, or the Army, then it would have been to the Air Corps back then.
Um, but yeah, no, it's an interesting conversation to have, right? You know, because it's like, there's greater philosophical questions at hand of like what's the responsible and moral way for our country to go to war. You know, do we put it on the credit card? And and not have a war tax, you know, do we have conscription or not? I mean, those are broader public conversations.
I think that that need to be had and kind of go beyond the bounds of our conversation today. Helen, your thoughts? Yeah, no, I mean, this is such an important thing for people to know about. And so we're so grateful to have you, you know, sort of walk through it and for your leadership and and, you know, try to keep things with the times, which is so important. Um, Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think we, again, this is, this is one of those things that people have like this 66 year window of time where maybe they think about it, um, or and then they have another 6 year window of time when their parents, when, when they're, they are parents of people who are thinking about it.
Um, but it probably should be a much more frequent public conversation, especially, um, you know, for, for Joe and I, and obviously you and your family, you know, living in this, in this relatively small community and knowing that, you know, of people that will serve in the future, it is likely to be, you know, I, I have 3 kids, my kids are far more likely to serve than everyone else in America, their same age, right? And that feels a little, that feels a little weird. It feels a little, um, you know, it, I don't, I don't think the military should just be a family business. We should find ways to bring more people in and make people feel proud of and connected to it. Super grateful for for you explaining all this to us.
Ellen, I love your point there too. And I think that notion of service is really important and I think that's something we should all cherish in this country. Um, and I, and I wanted to mention this too. And I, you know, this is something to think about. I mentioned that national commission, they talked about this opportunity for federal agencies to work together to boost awareness, service, military, national and public service.
I don't necessarily see them as mutually exclusive. Um, you know, I I kind of come in, like I said, optimistically, I think people might try to go from one to another. We see a large number of veterans serving in the federal government after you know, having spent time in uniform. So one thing I wanted to let you guys know too, that we, you know, and that spirit of service and wanting to do more, uh, we've become, we, we started to partner with the America Corps. We already have one MOU memorandum of understanding with them and we're on track to have another one to share between our agencies more about service and volunteer opportunities.
So more young people know about it. And it could take the form of, hey, when a young person gets something in the mail from selective service, a registration acknowledgment letter, they would potentially get something from America Corps telling them about nationals service. And we're looking at, maybe we do some of this via mail, some maybe we do some of this electronically. Same thing with Peace Corps. Um, and maybe even public service.
So we've been talking with some agencies about that. But we have a vision too, that selective service could be a hub for service across military national and public service, building on our unique capabilities to engage with young men, potentially more than young men like we discussed, who are on the verge of choosing their path in life. And, um, I actually, I'm a really big believer in service, as you can hear. Um, and I, and I think that building service ethos is in our national interest, uh, I think that, you know, utilizing things like uh, national automatic registration and focusing on a national call for service or transformational, they'll build up a better understanding of civic responsibility. And I think it's just really a great investment in our future.
And I'd love to see people who, and I love community service, but let's take that community service to the next step. Have you thought about national service, working with people who aren't like you, maybe are from a different part of the country, working on something bigger than yourself to deliver something of value to the country, and building those bonds over years. I think that strengthens people's notion of how to interact with the government, what the government is. It's not the enemy, but that they are fundamentally stakeholders. They have a responsibility to shape the government.
Yeah, absolutely. And the whole point about like, there's many ways to serve our country is absolutely true. You know, our teachers, our firemen, our EMTs, truck drivers, or farmers, like all the, like everyone that kind of makes this fabric of America and the system work. Um, you know, it's important, right? So I think, you know, it's like service national services is just not the domain of America's military veterans.
So, um, we just wanted to thank you again for coming on the show today for helping educate us about what the selective service is how it affects Americans lives. Right now. We know it's males 18 to 25, have to, uh, register, uh, the law is not yet there for women to be required to do the same. Um, and I had one last question. So if I'm 19 and I'm well past my 18th birthday and I didn't do this.
Am I in trouble or like, you know, if I show up and do it now, am I going to, you know, is there any penalty to that or what's what's the course of option for me there? So men can continue to register, um, all the way through their final day of being 25 years old. But once they hit 26, they can no longer register. Uh, but if, uh, you know, if they do have concerns about, 0 my goodness, I didn't register and I want a federal job, they can uh, contact, select a service system, and they can request uh, uh, what's called a status information letter. And actually, we move that online to help people who are in that in that category.
So there is a process, but it's ultimately the benefits granting organizations that have to make the, you know, determinations about, uh, somebody's knowing and willfulness for not registering. Okay. Yeah, no, that makes sense and is good to know that there's a process in place where if I, you know, forgot, didn't do it, whatever. Had football practice that day, um, okay. It's important for people to understand the law and to follow it.
So, well, um, any final thoughts? Uh, no, Joe, this has been a real treat to talk with both you and Ellen, and to hear your thoughts on this, and really value the discussions that you're having in the discussion we had today. I really appreciate the time and opportunity. Well, we really appreciate the gift of your time and thoughts and wisdom on, uh, you know, what I would say is like a little known aspect of the American government that can have profound impact on the lives of Americans and our national defense. So thank you for all you and your staff do to make sure that, you know, if we ever needed to, uh, engage in this, uh, uh, uh, conscription again, um, There's a system in place to rapidly call Americans up to uh, to serve.
There are many ways to serve our country after leaving the military. And there are many great groups across our country who can use your talents and draft. There's an old saying that if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you wanna go far, go together. And when we challenge ourselves in 2022 to help America close 120,000 deficit and election poll volunteers, we banded together with like-minded people, formed vet the vote, which was our nationwide public awareness and election poll worker recruitment campaign, to help ensure American elections are properly staffed and run.
That year, we built a coalition of more than 30 veteran and civic groups, and asked veterans and their family members to serve again. You know what? More than 63,500 of you responded. And today, we're spotlighting the newest member of the vote coalition, the mission continues. We're super excited about this.
They have a great mission, as their name would imply, and a superb reputation in the veteran and military space. And joining us today from the mission continues, is Marine Corps combat veteran and president of the mission continues, Mary Beth Bergman. Welcome. Thank you. Wonderful to be here with you both.
Thanks so much for having us on and for everything you're doing every day to protect democracy. Absolutely. And thanks for joining us this morning on, uh, espresso fueled, uh, uh, actually, it's mid morning already. Okay. But yeah, just before we went on, Mary Beth and I realized that we were both in Iraq together, you were at MWSS 372 while I was with 1st Marine Division.
Um, and we were just doing... Glamorous Miramar, yes. I'm sorry, that's right. 373. Um, I got they screwed up already.
I need more caffeine. But anyway, we want to get to your mission and your organization. So can you tell us like, what does the mission continues to do? Sure. Well, we're a national nonprofit.
And we exist to give veterans an opportunity to serve again when they leave the military. So this time we're asking them to repurpose their leadership skills and their experience, um, back home in under resource communities in their own backyards, and find ways to once again serve, uh, with a mission and a purpose, and we're helping point them in the right direction and and linking them up with community partners who can really use their support. Um, and they are thereby fulfilled and find that sense of purpose again, that so many of us lose when we leave the military and find connection with other veterans and with communities, and it's a, it's a win-win. Can you give us a few examples of things that your organization does? Oh, sure, I can give you 100s of examples.
Um, you know, we're we're really excited about what we're doing in San Antonio this year. We're gearing up for what we call a mass deployment, which is our once annual opportunity for to bring veterans in from across the country and deploy them against some local work that's been taking place there for a long time. So our local platoon leader, Richard Diaz, who's a veteran himself, and a volunteer. He's been stepping up and leading a service platoon in San Antonio for years now. And he brings together veterans and non-veterans on any given Saturday throughout the year.
And, um, connects with local nonprofit partners and, uh, you know, puts puts everybody to work in a 6 or 7 hour time frame and does incredible things over the course of the day. Um, so it's really amazing to see the work that he's been doing with his partners like democracy prep. Um, and so many of his, he's got urban gardens and urban farms that he works with in San Antonio. He works with the San Antonio Unified School district, um, and so many others across the city. And so we're able now to build on that work this summer in June and deploy about 80 veterans to San Antonio to help, give a real shot in the arm to the work that he and his platoon have been doing for years.
That's amazing. So, I mean, it's it's very obvious what this community, your community of veterans is doing for these other communities, San Antonio, but all across the country as we well know. How do you categorize what that work does for the veterans themselves and sort of the broader veteran community? Um, well, so I find that veterans so often miss the thing that they're missing when they leave the military. And so so many go looking for to fill a hole somehow.
And it's work. It's it's having stable finances. It's all the things that we need to do when we leave the military. Um, but I meet so many veterans that tell me that what they didn't know was missing was feeling needed again. And so there's this this golf that, um, that is created when we leave the military because for so long we've been in this really mission driven, purposeful work.
And we leave the military. We transition out, and we find so many things, we find fulfillment in so many different ways with family, with work, with our home life, whatever it is. Um, but if you don't have that feeling that somebody needs you, that you're still on someone's front lines, that you're still on that wall, um, then there's really something that can can very much feel like it's missing. It's just this black hole and so many folks just misidentify it or can identify it at all. Um, that's one of the greatest joys is watching veterans discover organizations like the mission continues and the work that we do, and tell us on the back end of their 1st service project or their 1st mass deployment.
This is what I didn't know I was missing. This is the thing that I didn't know I needed. Um, and so we're we are filling a purpose gap. We're filling a connection gap. It's that ability to have that really comfortable banter with military veterans that, you know, that you might miss from the military, that that feeling like you're part of a tribe again.
But also recognizing that that tribe extends beyond those veterans and now includes this incredible community of non-veterans and supporters and local communities that want to create this connection with you as well and want to tap into that leadership and experience that you bring home. That is so, so important. I mean, I remember Mary Beth, and you probably remember this too. When we came in the Marine Corps, General Krulac was, we always talked about like the 3 reasons we have a Marine Corps, right? To make Marines win battles and return quality citizens to their communities.
And the Marine Corps doesn't make good on that last part of that promise, right? They get you out the door. But groups like yours are the ones who are really putting that into play every day in communities all across America. You know, and I think it's important because, like, the veteran community is shrinking. You know, we have like a little bit north of 17 million, I think, now last I checked and by 2050 that's going to go down to below 14000000 while the American population grows to over 405 million.
And so per capita. Um, there are fewer and fewer of us. And I think, you know, when people derive or decry that, military civilian gap in America doesn't understand us and all this other stuff. You know, one thing I tell veterans is like, you got to take that 1st step towards them when you go back to your communities. Like if you're waiting for somebody to reach out to you, you're going to be waiting a long time.
So I think, you know, what a great, great way to meet other people where you intend to live and put your talents um, out there in a positive direction that's going to help the entire community. Fantastic. Yeah, just and just stepping up. I mean, I think it's incredible to just to see people come back to life when they start volunteering. And again, it's with us.
It's with other organizations. There's so many out there. Um, I love what we do for very particular reasons. It's, it's not only is, is it impactful on the veterans, but we're making a big impact in communities. But again, you can find it in so many different places, but it's that feeling of like, hey, I'm needed.
Somebody's asking me for my skills. Again, somebody needs me to help solve a problem. Somebody put something sticky in front of me and really needs me to get through this challenge. Um, I love it. These, these service projects are challenging.
I mean, we even throw things in there like, hey, you may have to do more with less. You may have to get through this without the resources you need. You may not have a tool that you need. You may have a weather challenge in front of you, but that's when we find these veterans get most, you know, woken up and that's when they get most excited because they're like, oh, wait a minute, a challenge, a hill I can climb. Yeah, I know how to do that.
Point me towards the hardest thing and that's what I'm going to go try to tackle. Super cool. I love it. what I love most about the veteran community. Yeah, you know, I coach quite a few veterans every year, people will contact me, be like, hey, I'm going to be getting out of the military, you know, I feel like I'm jumping off a high dive, like, what do I need to think about?
And, you know, like, they've heard about, like, you need to figure out, like, where you're gonna live, how much you need to make, what do you want to do for an occupation? And, you know, they come to me with various aspects of that equation figured out. But really, what I tell them after that is like, okay, well, how are you going to make meaning in your life after this? You're leaving an organization with more than 240 years of lineage where you know you're, you know, your rank and status within the tribe, you know, like you have a, you know, something happens on CNN and you're packing your cargo bag to ship out, like, what's gonna put that fire in your belly again? And and I think you've landed on the secret.
It's like serving other people in a meaningful way in your community. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Finding finding the toughest challenge you can find and going after it for sure. Yeah, absolutely.
What kind of support do you, does the mission continues need from from our community? Um, you know, I, I really love the quote you used at the beginning, if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. Um, I know we don't do enough of that. I mean, even the mission continues, we don't do enough of that. This real true collaborative work.
Um, but our space is getting smaller. It's going to, um, not only do we have fewer veterans, as you said, but there's less money out there. There are fewer resources and um, we're all competing for the same attention, the same dollars, the same, the same little slice of everything. And, um, what we want is to be true collaborative, collaborative partners, we're all for partnership in any kind of way, whether it's transactional or not. We'll partner.
That's great. But we're looking for real, real, true, deep collaboration that, in fact, where you pull, you're like puzzle pieces working together and finding ways to pull on each other's strengths. Um, so we're we're super open to that and looking for organizations that that just want to be want to draw from the strengths of the work that we do and believe that the strengths of the work that they do can can fit together. Um, in a really in a really positive way. Um, so that's one thing.
And that's kind of that goes into sort of the mutual support category. Um, but there's also just a lot. Look, we, we feel a really important void in the military and veteran support space. Um, but it is one, it is just one void that we fill and we're very disciplined, um, more now so than ever because of everything I just talked about. We're very disciplined about staying, sticking to filling our void.
Um, but our veterans come to us with a range of challenges, desires, wants, needs, anything. Um, and we, we need partners that we can, um, confidently connect them with and refer them to so that they're getting all of what they need. And we believe that this is a system and an ecosystem of support. And again, we're just one slice of it and good at what we do, the best at what we do. Um, but all too happy to tell veterans about all the things that we don't do.
And all the folks that exist, that can help them in their next chapter, if what they need is not what we have, or they need something in addition to what we're able to give them. Yeah, I'm hearing kind of focusing on your mission and keeping the main thing, the main thing, which is kind of a nice segue into vet the vote, Ellen, do you want to take us down that? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love, you hit on, you know, the sort of the 3 key things that, that we would, we would say we're, we're really in total alignment with, which is, you know, partnership collaboration across the veteran and military family space. Um, but also something really cool that you said about, you know, just sort of showing up and doing the hard things. And so, um, you know, America had this challenge of poll workers, we will have this challenge again.
We will continue to have this need. Um, and we see this, this, you know, sort of coalition as a way to answer that need using this incredible community. So can you just, in your own words, talk about, you know, why the mission continues, um, has, has kind of, you know, join this coalition and and what, you know, in this election year, um, how you see, uh, us all working together to solve a problem for America. Yeah, um, I, couple things. I mean, one, I think it's important for me to just talk personally about the fact that I'm one of the people that answered the call.
when you all put out the call for poll workers and election officers. I am now an election officer here in Virginia. And I've only missed one election since I became an election officer and I felt like I was missing out. I had a, I had real FOMO on that day. Um, it was too much with my, just where we were with, with the mission continues in our operational cycle.
I just couldn't, I couldn't commit to the day far enough out. Um, but I hated missing it. Because when I worked that very 1st election and I think that I was, I think I signed up. Um, for the primary in the 2020 presidential election, if that sounds right to you guys, like timing wise. So I think that's that was my 1st election that I worked and then I worked the general election that year.
Um, and I was fascinated by the whole experience. I was drawn to it. I really did feel like I was on the wall that day. Like, I felt like they needed me on that wall that day. And because it was something that I could see from who turned out for that.
Like it wasn't easy to get election officers and I'm in a county that's pretty well resourced. So we don't have massive gaps where some other folks do. Um, but all the same, it wasn't simple to get people to sign up and do the training and be out there and be out there all day. And I was so eager to be there. And I knew as I met people, um, that were working that election with me.
There were probably 50% of the people, at least 50% of the people at my polling station were veterans or military spouses. Yeah. I mean, you could just see who was eager to answer the call. So that was one like personally. I absolutely loved the experience and I felt like it was, um, like this ironclad.
Like this is where this is where our bureaucracy really does the job. Like, our elections are incredibly secure, and I can say that because I've been a part of them. And so for me, I felt like I gained some credibility in being able to say, like, we, I, I can, I can tell you exactly what the process is from start to finish on a day when you work at an election like this and how your vote gets counted. Um, and I loved validating that for myself and being able to then be, you know, a trusted voice for others. Um, so that leads me to, so why did the mission continues join?
I mean, part of that is like my experience does help to inform why we can say yes to things like this and partnerships. Um, and also. I, we have found that our, our veterans want to be a part of initiatives like this. Again, when there is a critical gap in our country, veterans want to be called. They want to be asked to serve, they want to be asked to join.
Um, they care deeply about the outcomes for this country. They care deeply about, um, the our Constitution and everything it takes to uphold that. Um, they do not care about politics, we find, generally speaking, as a as a rule, I would say. Um, they don't care about politics and frankly don't want to be a part of it. And I think sometimes need something that you guys are really good at.
They need an education about where they can be most useful because we leave. We are in the military and even leave the military, believing we should stay as far away from conversations about politics as we can. And that can lead us to staying far away from government, period, and serving in any capacity, whether that's in government service or even as an election officer, like I'm not allowed to be at polls. Because it might make people think that I'm in tune with politics. I hear that all the time from veterans.
apolitical, apolitical, I'm non-political, that I learned that from the military. I serve the commander in chief. Understood, and yet, you're no longer in the military, and in fact, have a really important trusted voice, and, and in my view, an obligation to at least be informed. And I care not at all how people vote. I care deeply whether they vote because I just think that it's so important to participate and for something that you fought so hard for.
Blood, sweat, tears, we lost friends. We lost friends so that we could have an ability to have these free and fair elections. We fought in countries and saw firsthand what it looks like when other countries do not have free and fair elections. It matters, but it takes all of us participating in that in order for it to work. And again, um, I I applaud, um, a two-party system.
I applaud everything it takes and all the conflict it takes. I think it's actually a really beautiful part of our democracy. Um, and and still, I ask veterans just be a part of it. Just participate. And if working, if being a poll worker, an election officer is something that helps give you confidence in the system, start there.
Do that, because it's needed. Um, and I do think it makes a huge difference for for veterans and military families. We couldn't have said it better. I mean, it does change you in a meaningful way. to go and make democracy happen for Americans.
I mean, I remember, uh, my wife and every time we volunteer and and uh, and help run our polling station, I mean, we leave there feeling great, right? Because, you know, you see so many members of the community, a lot of people that may agree with you, a lot of people that probably don't agree with you, but they're all coming in to exercise their fundamental right to vote and choose our elected officials. And, and, you know, it's just like, that is a special thing that we should never take for granted. And as you mentioned, so many of our brothers and sisters have sacrificed over the years, um, going all the way back to 1775 to to guarantee that right. So, um, Mary Beth, like, where can people go to learn more about the mission continues and get involved?
Well, we go to our website. That's the 1st stop. missioncontinues.org. And, um, from there, that will get you to uh, get involved page where you can find out if there's a service platoon near you.
And we have service platoons in 47 cities across the country. So I hope there's one near most of your listeners. And um, I would just highly encourage people to take the step and and come to the next service project in your community. Uh, there's no barrier to entry. We, it's a come one come all.
We will find something for you to do that will help you feel incredibly purposeful, whether you come for a day or you stay with us for years. Um, whether you decide to join a leadership team as a military veteran, or you want to come one time with your family and um, and say you did a good thing for the day. It takes all, it takes all, and we're just really excited to continue to grow this movement of veteran led service. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful.
Please share it with the people you know. This episode was co-hosted by Joe Plenzler and Ellen Gustafson. The audio and video were edited by King's Collab Studios. This podcast is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families. 501c3 not-for-profit, non-partisan, veteran and military spouse led organization, focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American freedom and liberty.
Find out more about us at me the veterans.us and follow us on social media.
Last Updated: 2026-09-27